Friday, May 15, 2009

Are they really that small minded?

Over at Bojack.org, there's a post saying that the Sam Adams recall effort is doomed because conservative talk show host Victoria Taft was "front and center" last night at the recall effort's kick-off party.

Bojack says that having conservatives involved will turn off all those groups that are needed to get rid of Adams - unions, Bus Project folks, greenies, etc.

Here is my question: I know that Jack Bogdanski himself is without question sufficiently small minded to actually not support a valid cause just because he politically disagrees with others who do support it. He has displayed his small mindedness time and again on his blog by banning commenters who do nothing more than make points he has trouble contesting.

But are Portland liberals as small minded as Bogdanski? Will they really think to themselves: "Oh I was going to sign the recall petition, but Victoria Taft and Lars Larson are supporting it, so maybe I won't. Are people really so limited in their sophistication and world-view that they automatically reject anything that is supported by people with different ideologies?

I doubt it.

Bogdanski works in the ivory tower. Lewis & Clark law school is famously extreme liberal. Conservative viewpoints at that place are simply not considered to be credible. It is a skewed view of the world that can only exist in cloistered halls like academia.

Bogdanski is a very clear thinker on many issues, but he has a barely concealed visceral hatred of conservatives that is actually standard-faire in academia. I don't think the majority of Portland liberals are similarly small minded.

But guess what? I actually hope Sam Adams survives this effort. I want the recall to make the ballot, but I don't want Sam out. It is important for the future of Portland that Sam Adams fulfill his term as mayor.

The recall, and the campaign (if the recall gets enough signatures) will be a very entertaining circus. I admit I will enjoy this. But I really think Sam should stay on as mayor because Portland really needs to hurry up and let the crash hit with the full force that Sam Adams will inevitably bring upon it.

Why delay the crash? Portland won't realize the lunacy of its many wrongheaded policies until the full effect of the ideology Sam Adams represents is allowed to take its course.

So that's why I support Sam Adams!

34 comments:

Roadrunner said...

Ah, the old "it has to get worse so it will get better approach." Lovely.

I don't know that much about Victoria Taft, but having Lars involved in any way would damage the credibility in any way--he regularly makes things up and presents them as fact. Most people call that "lying".

And look at how successful Lars has been--the radio station where he works lost 83% of its value in the last 11 years. Yep, that Lars is a real winner.

Rob Kremer said...

That's about what GE has lost in the last 18 months. That Keith Olberman .... yeah he's a real winner.

Roadrunner said...

Oh, come on, Rob, that's just silly.

Lars is a much larger percentage of KXL's "product" than Keith Olbermann.

Besides, GE's stock price has dropped a lot in the last 18 months (as have the prices of a lot of other stocks), but it's only dropped 67%, not 83%.

It's interesting that you've focused on only the one issue with Lars. The bigger issue is that he's a liar, and the station's response is generally something along the lines of "he gets good ratings."

After Hurricane Katrina he sent out a "timeline" that he claimed was from the New Orleans Times Picayune. I looked at it, and it didn't seem to match anything else put out by the paper, and when I tried to search for info to corroborate it, I didn't find a single match.

When I asked Lars for the source of the info (which he always claims he'll do if you ask him) I got nothing. When I brought it to the attention of station management, they said "we believe Lars", without looking into it.

But I understand it's difficult to unhitch your wagon from the gravy train.

Rob Kremer said...

Of course I was being silly. Just as it is silly to suggest that Lars was a drag on KXL's asset value. All broadcast properties are way off.

And BTW, although GE has recovered from its lows of march 4, it went down 84% between Octover 1 and then.

Anonymous said...

I think you're probably wrong about a couple of things, unfortunately. First is the relative small-mindedness of Portland liberals. I don't think there's a chance in hell the Adams recall will be successful.

Second is that people will finally wake up at the end of Adams' term when everything's worse then it is now.

The truth is that things have been worse in Portland at the end of the terms of a string of liberal mayors. Despite this, Portlanders elected Adams. Now, he's the worst, combining a cynical and undeserved sense of superiority with a penchant to champion enormously expensive taxpayer funded failures. The City is teetering on the brink of a fiscal disaster (a statement with which I think even Jack would agree) and he wants to issue debt to build soccer and baseball stadia. Insane? Sure, but that's Portland and people are eating it up with a spoon.

Secondly, the expensive mistakes Adams has made and will make will never go away. Just look how many New Deal programs have disappeared since we came out of the Great Depression in 1945. Reagan wasn't kidding when he quipped that the closest thing to eternal life on earth was a government program. How long has it been since the liberals in Detroit should have realized they were on the wrong track?

Portland IS Detroit, just running a decade or two behind. There is nothing that can be done to stop the rot - not recalling Adams, not voting in conservatives - nothing.

M2inOR said...

RR,

Fine, you have an issue with Lars. You don't have to listen to him, or Rob for that matter when he is on Sunday mornings with Abrams. Perhaps Thom or Randi are more to your truth-seeking liking. Or perhaps a more mellow NPR.

Lars gets on my nerves sometimes, too. Then again, all the talk show hosts bother me at one time or another. That's why there are presets on the car or home radio.

Listen to any of the talking heads on TV or cable, and you are sure to find extreme comments that may stretch the truth.

Back to Rob's point: is the challenge to Sam Adams a partisan issue? He was elected in a non-partisan election. There certainly supporters and detractors from all political persuasions.

Will Lars or Victoria tarnish the effort since they believe in it? I hope not. I would hope that the citizens will look beyond their left or right beliefs, and follow what the complaint actually is for the recall.

If it is so easy to redirect a recall effort or any other agenda, all one needs to do is have the lightning-rod talk show hosts voice their support or critique to every issue. I don't think people are that stupid.

It certainly will be an interesting summer.

Roadrunner said...

M2inOR,

I don't live in Portland at the moment, so I'm not eligible to sign the petitions, nor vote in the election. If I were, I'm not sure what I'd do. I do think it would have been better if Adams had resigned.

But Rob's calling those who wouldn't sign because of those aligned with the recall effort "small minded" is ridiculous.

Though Adams' behavior wasn't stellar, it's unclear that he broke any laws--the case against Bush and Cheney for law breaking is much stronger, but I don't see Rob calling those who opposed it "small minded" because it would have benefited political opponents.

RoadrunnersConscience said...

Look! Shiny!

OregonGuy said...

Rob--

When the wheels come off, it will be Republicans who will be blamed. First, President Bush. Then, any Republican who voiced doubt over the current vision. That Republicans worked to sabotage our success. And then, don't forget the evil corporations who only want unsustainable profits. If only people were more like the people would could be if we only tried rilly, rillly, rilly hard.

Oh, well. When it all comes down on our heads, all we can do is try, try again.
.

Anonymous said...

RR:
You don't think it is small minded to automatically oppose something because someone else with whom you disagree is for it?

ClackCoRepub said...

I kind of agree with the sentiment that Sam Adams should stay because Portland voters deserve him.

If he gets the boot, the smart-growth-developer-cabal will survive and their minions will spin that the recall was about Sam's indiscretions with a minor and not about his agenda.

If we're just going to get the same kind of politician anyway, then leave Sam in place so he can continue steering us into the ditch at maximum speed. The sooner that he completely wrecks Portland, the sooner we'll have an opportunity to make some changes.

At some point Portland has to be allowed to learn from its failure.

Of course, I moved out of Portland/MultCo four years ago so it is a lot easier for me to say it.

Anonymous said...

Even as the local left is mired in its cranio-rectal inversion, everyone else is figuring it out.

Sticking up for Sambla, Randy Leonard made a total ass of himself on CNN's Situation Room yesterday.

And today, the Wall Street Journal tells the inconvenient truth about joblessness in Portland on the front page in an article titled "'Youth Magnet' Cities Hit Midlife Crisis". Link: here.No doubt there will be more to come, as most folks - as the CNN news editors know - rubberneck a coming trainwreck when it is so obvious, in such plain view.

Charley said...

Rob, don't blame Jack. He is only pointing out the obvious. Yes, libs are small minded enough to ignore all of the Mayor's transgressions, if it means aligning with anyone from the right. We don’t need to convince conservatives Sam needs to leave, we already get it.

The left leadership needs to step forward and lead the charge to bounce this guy. But they won't. They never will. They will be happy to sit back and comment how he should resign. Many are afraid that if a recall fails, they would be in a difficult position. Some would call this the gutless wonder syndrome.

Just look at the left's refusal to move Pelosi out as speaker. She is not exactly the link to non-partisan politics Obama has been calling for. Yet she continues to spew her venomous poison, without condemnation from her peers.

You are right that Sam may be our best hope for a positive change next election. But he won;t be re-called. Lets hope Portland can survive.

Roadrunner said...

The basis of my position is this:

No political debate occurs in a vacuum. In this case, there is Sam Adams behavior, which is certainly questionable, but there is also those opposed to him, whose behavior has also been questionable.

If a group of upright, conservative citizens got together and pushed this petition, I can see supporting it. But when they enlist someone of questionable moral character such as Lars "I'll shoot my daughter if she even tries pot" Larson is enlisted to the cause, it changes the equation, because if Sam is removed from office, that will be seen as a victory for Lars "I care so much about Portland and Oregon that I moved to Washington" Larson.

Me said...

Road,
You're an idiot making up your own reality. And you don't know anything about Lars' moral character.
It's amazing to watch you clowns trot out your charges against Lars et al.

The rest of your contributions are worthless babble.

Anonymous said...

Roadbat is just a typical leftwing double-standard bearer, continually applying rules to opponents that would never be applied to others. It's straight out of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals.

So what if this abuse led to the election of conservative-hating leftists in Oregon and elsewhere. So what if The Funny Paper can get away with it because they play monopoly and their advertisers are status quo home-town cheerleaders.

Bringing that brand of leftwing hubris to conservative blogs' comment sections, however, is a gross miscalculation. Why? Because we all see through the deliberate abstruseness. And it focuses a bright light on the nature of what radio personality Michael Savage correctly describes as 'a mental disorder.'

Roadrunner said...

Anon 757, I assure you, if a lefty radio show host said they'd shoot their daughter if that daughter tried pot, I'd be critical of that person, too.

Do you really think that's acceptable?

Anonymous said...

May 16, 2009 at 10:18 pm
Recall Fail says:
May 15, 2009 at 12:39 am
Dou---baggery aside, this effort is dripping with fail. I, myself, will be enjoying my summer months catching some rays and following this recall as it struggles to get off the ground.

Jeff Taylor and Victoria Taft. Two excellent spokespeople. Clowns, the lot of them.

TO RECALL FAIL:

Lets see, ONLY PROGRESSIVES CAN EXERCISE FREE SPEECH, THE RIGHT TO ASSEMBLE, TO PETITION OUR GOVERMENT FOR CHANGE….HOW AM I DOING SO SO FAR?

Only “BLUE OREGON” can speak for the community.

If you choose to debate in this town,and the “company line” is challenged..YOUR A LIB/GAY/ BIGOT HATER..right so far?

First of all, on any blog venue in town,that posts that no one showed, only RIGHT-WINGER EXTREMISTS,were there, GOP voter registrations went down, anti-gay signs were seen,and that LARS was there as well..are lying more then SAM.

It had it all..GAY/STRAIGHT, LIB/GOP/YOUNG/OLD people that showed, people unannounced running for office, all were there…no one was turned away.

Sure as hell, unlike people on “BLUEOREGON”, who chastise and name call ,and then disallow your comments if again the “party line” is crossed.

My view talking and listening to people, that all sectors got along, all want to get this city back on track, and were highly motivated to do so.

So, when you post against this…think again, people who were there, will think you are dishonest..kind of like the mayor.

Jack Peek

Anonymous said...

Roadbat is dean in drag

Roadrunner said...

Rob calls those who take political considerations into account in making their decision about supporting the recall "small minded".

Then he declares that he'll take political considerations into account in pulling for the recall to make the ballot, but then fail.

So, by his own definition, Rob is small minded.

Anonymous said...

Roadbat, If you do not cease your Enhanced Interrogation Techinque comments on conservative blogs, Speaker Pelosi is going to lose it and you are going to be in deep doo-doo. We've had more than enough of your style of fascism over the past 8 years. Isn't it time for you to move on and leave behind the failed comment policies of the past?

Sabokat said...

LOL.. not the Liberals are Fascists thing again? Please. Is it possible to address the issue without resulting to name calling and mis-characterization?

Anonymous said...

Sabobat you are willfully ignorant. Fascism = Statism. The label 'fascist' applies correctly to politicians and those on their food chain who are determined to use the power of government to force folks to serve the means and ends of the state. It is not limited to Democrats. You, Sabobat, are a fascist. Why can't you accept what you and your ilk are - hell bent on using government power to create your version of utopia. It ends up being a dystopia, of course, because fascism denies human nature -- the instinct to be free. You really belong in Venezuela, where Hugo Chavez is your kind of leader. You are certainly out-of-step with this and other conservative blogs that have no use for your fascism.

Anonymous said...

Good point, anon. Fascism also usually has a militaristic aspect. Insofar as Barack Obama has continued the Bush policy of conduct wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and restarting the Gitmo tribunals, he has adopted the militarism of classic fascism. His economic and regulatory policies, however, are far more fascistic than Bush's.

Sabobat is nothing more than an Alinskyite troll. Please do not feed these fascistic trolls - it just fuels their hatred.

Roadrunner said...

Rob,

It's just wonderful to read the thoughtful comments of those who agree with you. And such impeccable manners!

Anonymous said...

Rob - may I call you Rob?

Roadrunner'sConscience said...

Look! Shiny!

Sabokat said...

Anon 2:52 and Anon 3:05 --

I wrote: Is it possible to address the issue without resulting to name calling and mis-characterization?Ya'll said: Sabobat you are willfully ignorant... You, Sabobat, are a fascist. [Anon 2:52] and Sabobat is nothing more than an Alinskyite troll. [Anon 3:05]

A simple "no" to my query would have sufficed. ;)

Fascism, as you use it, is simply a pejorative stripped of all historical context and meaning. IF Fascism was simply statism you'd have a point. But it's not, so you don't. Pull out any other single aspect of Fascism and you'll be able to correlate it to just about every political movement and party in the United States.

I suppose an example of overly simplistic comparisons would be in order. You are anti-statist (presumably). Anarchists are anti-statist. So, by applying your standards of logic, it would be reasonable to call you an Anarchist.

(This should give you pause... not all Lefties are statist, and many Conservatives prefer a statist response to social issues - something they would share in common with Fascism. But, please, don't let me rain on your parade. Willfully ignorant indeed.)

UnionOrganizer said...

I'm not afraid to admit I'm a fascist. No big whup. John Sweeney, the AFL-CIO chief, is an admitted socialist, like most honest union bigs. Rep. John Conyers was a member of the CP-USA. What about Rep. Bobby Rush? Bill Ayers? Rev. Jeremiah Wright? Give me a break. Sen. Robert Byrd was Grand Keagle of the KKK. Teddy Kennedy ... sorry, not enough space here.

Sabokat said...

See, UO embraces who he is... and good luck with that dude.

Now me... Not a fascist (no matter what the Anons may say) - I would have to say I float somewhere between Democratic Socialism and Libertarian Socialism. I'm a big fan of George Orwell... so maybe an Orwellian socialist.

A lefty, but very wary of concentrated authority and power. Sorry Anons, no statism here.

Anonymous said...

Any way you slice it Sabo, a socialist is a socialist. What do you have against individual, God-given rights? That's what socialism is designed to corrode.

Sabokat said...

Anon 8:56

I'm not sure why you believe I have something against our Rights. I have certainly not made any statements to that effect. But I'll play along - as an Democratic Socialist, what rights do I wish to corrode? All of them? Or just specific ones.

In addition, the idea that all socialists are alike is...misinformed. Not all Capitalists are the same... not all Socialists are the same. Don't take the easy way out... learn to appreciate the diversity ;)

Anonymous said...

Wow, I've been entertained by neanderthals for the past 30 minutes since discovering this blog. And such politeness. Perhaps we should call on Politeness Man from the ol' National Lampoon to step in and whack a few skulls!?

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