It's very early in this story, but as the numbers start to come in, it sure does look suspicious.
NWRepublican has a post that is a pretty good portal to follow this story. Did the Obama administration engineer the Chrysler dealership closures to benefit political supporters?
The great thing about this story is it is just MADE for the blogosphere. One thing the atomistic nature of the blogosphere makes possible is applying large numbers of people to large sets of data. Most of the necessary information is out there - the closed dealerships, who owns them, where they are in relation to the surviving dealerships, who contributed money to Obama and who didn't, income levels of the geographic areas, the service records of the dealerships, and maybe even the sales figures.
So give the blogosphere a week to tear into this data, and if Obama actually was stupid enough to let this happen, it will be proven.
The mainstream media would take months to investigate something with this much data to nail down and crunch, if indeed it was inclined to do it, which it isn't.
If this thing pans out, it will be one of the biggest Presidential scandals ever.
This will be interesting!
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74 comments:
If this thing pans out, it will be one of the biggest Presidential scandals ever.Just wait until they finish following the money on Global Warming.
Clearly, they've closed successful dealerships. Why? Interestingly as well, the dealers paid for product, which they apparently will not be allowed to sell as "authorized dealers" which means they get stuck with the inventory.
why not afford them time to sell the products they purchased?
It all has sort of a Chicago odeur to it. Maybe I recognize it because I grew up in the area.
The moonbat retort is:
"Of course they closed all the Republican dealers. ALL dealers are Republicans, therefore any dealers that were closed HAD TO BE Republicans."
So the Daily Kos kids are already fabricating lies.
But the Army of Davids will find out the truth.
The only Question is, will the MSM ever report the truth?
If Ted Piccolo posted it, it's probably bogus. You should know that by now, Rob.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/05/news-flash-car-dealers-are-republicans.html
Yes, of course most of the dealerships that were closed are Republicans. It turns out most dealerships are owned by Republicans.
You know, if you want to just sink further and further into irrelevance, you can continue to post this garbage, but people have figured it out about the right and they don't trust you anymore.
That's the response? That car dealers are overwhelmingly Republican?
Sure that is true. But that might not be good enough here. Not if the data shows dealers who DID give to Obama kept their dealerships, even if they demonstrably should have been closed by the standards they claimed to be using for making the decision.
As I said, let the blogosphere do its work. But the fact that car dealers are disproportionately Republican isn't necessarily an explanation.
Oh, come on, Rob.
Here is what Ted provided:
Statistics showing that the overwhelming percentage of closed dealerships contributed to Republicans.
Two examples of car dealerships not closed who contributed to Democrats.
So, there is no data showing a disproportionate percentage of dealerships who donated to Democrats keeping their dealerships.
Furthermore, what you're asking for is a quota system for car dealerships, or equality of results.
A truly meaningful analysis wouldn't just look at raw numbers of dealers and to which party they contributed, but would also compare the performance of the dealerships in question.
Again, Rob, anything coming from Ted Piccolo is suspect.
Have you read the comments section of his blog? You'll notice that when his facts are questioned, his response nearly all of the time is to call the other person names.
Then, when the challenger persists, Ted starts deleting the person's comments. Eventually, as apparently happened to me, the challenger will get banned.
Yes, other blogs, including those on the left, will occasionally delete comments and ban people, but it's usually for personal attacks. Ted does it because the other person is posting facts he doesn't like.
Of course, Ted justifies this by saying the other person is "lying", even though the other person has actually backed up their assertions.
Oh come on, Rob. We all know that even in our flawed democracy, might makes right. The Republicans always oppressed the Middle Class and got away with it. Now it's The Levelers' turn it's obvious that you Republicans dish it out but Republican't take it.
Again Rob, anything coming out of Roadrunner is suspect.
Another problem is that cross donors appear to be ignored. If all you're looking at in closed dealerships is "contributions to Republicans", you're ignoring those that were closed who also donated to Democrats.
If you're also only looking at "contributions to Democrats" in the dealerships remaining open, then you're ignoring those who also gave to Republicans.
And, here's the real kicker, where were you folks when Tom Delay's K Street Project, which shut out Democratic lobbyists, was in full swing?
I can't believe I finally figured this out. The comment area on these Conserv-a-Nut blogs is worthless thanks to numb-skulls like Roadie who squat and drop over and over and over again. Nobody bothers to stay around and clean up. I can't be the only one grossed out. Even Conserv-a-Nut folks are sick and tired. This has been another ridiculous waste of my time.
What really matters on these blogs is posting privileges. Rob, would you consider adding me as a writer? If not, please don't add Roadie.
Quark Soup!
Here's a good smackdown of "conservatives" from a libertarian perspective:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/mcmaken/mcmaken129.html
I read your 'smack down.' I detest the size of our government no matter who is running it. But it's leaders like Obama remind us how dangerous it can be.
Roadrunner -
The stuff on NW Republican didn't come from Ted Piccolo. As I clearly said - his post is a good "portal" to go the blogs that are discussing this.
I get that you don't like Ted, but it doesn't make much sense to dismiss information his site links to becaues you don't trust his own stuff.
Rob,
You've ignored my comments about the substantive issues with what you found through his site.
I don't like Ted because he's a hack who posts bogus information and then goes crazy when called on it. Perhaps you like that sort of behavior.
Roadbat,
You are a completely dishonest individual. That has been proven time and time and time again.
Just in this thread you took a FEW of the items that I took from the PORTAL and chose to ignore the entire topic.
Pretty dishonest for you but we have come to recognize you as an immature liar.
One who is worthy of derision and recognized as a by-word and a caricature of the worst in moonbatdom.
It comes from consuming too many skittles and washing them down with cheap coffee in the dark of your apartment living room.
It doesn't help that your chain smoking has created the stench of cigarette smoke so bad that even you poor cat (that you seldom let outside your apartment) can hardly stand it.
But you force kittie to stay with you because he is probably the last friend you have on earth.
Here is a hint: Grow up, start interacting honestly with people and drop the hatred of humanity.
It will take a while but people might actually start to accept you again.
Oh... and take care of that pile of laundry in the middle of the floor!
Yip Yip
Ted,
Rather than spewing a bunch of vitriol, why don't you actually address the issues I've raised?
Oh, I forgot, you're Ted Piccolo, and spewing vitriol is about all that you do.
Oh, and speaking of lying, I did, in fact, address the issues. You, however, have not.
So, please, tell me, where is the analysis that shows the relative performance of closed "Republican" dealerships versus "Democratic" dealerships that remained open. Otherwise, you're asking for a quota system.
And, Rob, why don't you point out to Ted how bad he makes your side look.
Memeep!
So give the blogosphere a week to tear into this data, and if Obama actually was stupid enough to let this happen, it will be provenAnd if it's not true, unfortunately, it will simply be "out there". Very few will stand up and say, "Damn, guess I was wrong."
Coyote -
Thank you for reminding me why I refuse to post on your blog anymore. Character evidently doesn't count anymore.
Sabokat,
Apparently he banned me. He doesn't like to be challenged. Like most bullies, he's really a coward.
It's mildly humorous how he'll post something, then someone will post a comment, often with references, and Ted will go ballistic.
I refuse to call him "Coyote" any more--the coyote is the trickster, and Ted is about as sly as a pile of manure.
This is Huge, but what's Worse is the fact that Barry Soetoro is not constitutionally eligible to be POTUS.
Why? He IS NOT a Natural Born Citizen. His mother and father, BOTH of them, must have been at least Naturalized citizens. His father was a Kenyan citizen under British rule in 1961. That's Fact!
We are dealing with a Crook, a Fraud, a Usurper in office and it's only going to get worse Unless we unite and drum him out.
G'day fellow 'bats. Today, during warm ups, we review Rule #13 from Saul Alinsky's 'Rules for Radicals', the handbook of the Left.
13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.
Quark Soup!
Funny, still no response from Rob over the real questions about this:
Where is the data showing that the percentage of Republican-only donors among closed dealerships is substantially higher than in the dealerships that are remaining open?
Where is the data showing that Republican-only donors among closed dealerships had better profitability that Democratic-only donors among those dealerships that remain open?
If all you're showing is that a high percentage of closed dealerships are Republican, that says nothing--dealerships in general are Republican.
RR: For God's sake, cool your jets!
I never said I had such data, nor that the premise of this brewing scandal was proven. Go read my post. I said let the blogosphere do its work and if this is true it will be proven.
You constantly set up these kind of straw men here.
Rob,
So, in other words, you're admitting that you posted unsubstantiated rumor.
I'm not setting up straw men, I'm pointing out that what you posted is meaningless unless there's more data. What you posted means nothing. There is no need to create a straw man when your original argument is made of straw.
Meanwhile, your ideological allies are incapable of posting without spewing bile. Isn't it embarrassing to have them on your side?
No, what's really embarrassing is how Roadbat is trying to get back in the union by terrorizing all the blogs he disagrees with. It ain't gonna work, Roadie. You screwed the pooch one too many times. There is no way we are letting you back in the union, no matter what kind of fool you make of yourself.
Oh, and Rob, can you point to anything you wrote about Tom Delay's K Street Project, which aimed to pressure lobbying firms into only hiring Republicans?
You see, I did this little search, and got the following results:
Your search - "rob kremer" "k street project" - did not match any documents.
Sorry, Roadburn. Those documents are not available. Sandy Berger stuffed them in his pants and removed them from the archives. But don't worry, we have the whole thing on tape.
Hey Rob,
What is it with your fellow-traveler commenters. Aren't you embarrassed to have such rude people on your side? What's up with that, anyway?
Most of these people would end up in detention in kindergarten.
Look! Shiney
Look! Empty!
Look! Lonely!
So, Rob, this story has now had a few days to percolate. Is there any actual evidence that the political inclinations of the dealerships played any role in which ones were closed and which will remain open?
So Roadie -- may I call you RoadRage? -- GOP Senators are calling for a probe.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/46843887.html
Interestingly, there's NO mention in the Washington Examiner story of preferential treatment being given to certain dealerships.
And, again, people calling for a probe is not evidence.
Where were you folks when Haliburton was getting no-bid contracts? Isn't that "preferential treatment"?
RoadRage - As if the whole GovMo deal is something other than UAW payback. Don't you know what Chicago politics is? Or are you trying to reinvent Barack Obama?
Where have you 'folks' been while organized labor made monopoly representation and exclusive bargaining (no-bid contracts) the rule? You are on a slippery slope, RoadRage.
Where's there's smoke, there's fire.
In this case, the smoke is coming out of the ears of the right-wing fringe.
Damn right RoadRash. We get our no-bid contracts, end of discussion. Double standard? 'Nuff said.
So all the polls say that folks don't like GovMo? Tough. They'd better get used to it. We won the election, remember?
Rob,
Still no evidence of actual wrongdoing? Are you going to admit this story is a whole lot of nothing?
And, again, did you post anything about the Halliburton no-bid contracts, or about Tom Delay's K Street Project?
RoadRash - everyone knows you saw this comment at NWR. Don't be such a horse's ass. You're really making us look bad.
"At the risk of triggering a fulminating spew of hate-filled Moonbat responses, this just in from Michelle Malkin:
Zero Hedge covers a court hearing involving terminated Chrysler dealers with some follow-up on its previous analysis of Dealergate and possible Clinton-tied cronyism in Arkansas.
Tyler Durden points to one very interesting declaration from Ethel L. Cook, a Chrysler dealer based in Little Rock. Click on his post for the PDF link to the full testimony, but here’s an excerpt:
"Having reviewed the pattern of assumption and rejection of dealers throughout their region, I have detected a pattern: In every market where there is a dealership connected with former Penske Automotive executive Steve Landers, or his new automotive partnership with “Mac” McLarty (former Chief of Staff for President Clinton) and Robert L. Johnson (majority owner of the Charlotte Bobcats), the competitors are rejected."
Not so fast, RR. I readily admit that this MIGHT turn out to be untrue. But it sure hasn't been refuted yet.
Why the hurry to declare this thing a tempest in a teapot? As I said in my original post - let the blogosphere do its thing. How long did it take to destroy the credibility of the faked CBS Dan Rather document? A while. This is much more complex.
Okay, Rob, but it also may be true that you don't beat your wife, but it hasn't been refuted yet.
You've completely missed the point. This story is Dorothy Parker's Oakland--there's no there there. There isn't anywhere near enough to raise any suspicion.
And, again, can you point to any writing you did about the no-bid contracts for Haliburton or about Tom Delay's K Street Project? Or do you only care about corruption when it's the other side?
Oh, and Rob, you haven't addressed the issue of the rudeness of your ideological allies in the comments of your blog.
Isn't it embarrassing to have allies whose behavior would get them sent to the corner in kindergarten?
Rob. It's about time you addressed RoadTrash's rudeness but we know you are too polite to do so. We all know who he is, how he was kicked out of the teachers union and is trying to curry favor and get back in by harassing you. That's what you get for helping kids escape the public screwel monopoly.
RR:
There is zero evidence of me beating my wife. That cannot be said about the dealer situation. There IS evidence. There ARE several very suspicious looking facts surrounding the matter.
Can you admit that? I have readily admitted that this thing is not yet proven, but you seem to want to say "move along, folks, nothing to see here" so quickly that the unmistakable impression you give is you protesteth too much.
There IS evidence that politically connected dealers kept their dealerships and had their competitors closed down. Does that necessarily mean that their connectedness was the reason they kept their dealership?
No, or at least it hasn't been proven yet. I have said this all along. But to pretend that this question has been fabricated out of whole cloth is just ignoring reality.
And no, this isn't even close to a situation like Halliburton. Halliburton got lots of no bid contracts. Was that because they were connected? Maybe. But it could also be because they were the only firm able to provide the services needed.
In any event there is a HUGE difference between passing political favors in the form of government contracts to favored firms, and the government shuttering private businesses because they are politically incorrect.
Big difference.
Sorry, Rob, I just don't see that you've provided anything resembling evidence.
You provided questionable statistics about closed dealerships (only looking at whether they had given to Republicans, ignoring that some of them had given to both), and you provided a few examples of dealerships that remained open.
Did you call for a full investigation into Halliburton? Of course they were well connected. Why did the contracts have to be no bid? If they were the only company that could provide the services, wouldn't that have come out in the bidding process?
And, again, SILENCE from you regarding Tom Delay's K Street Project. Can you point to anything you wrote about that?
So, Rob, nothing on the K Street Project?
In other words, it's okay when Republicans misuse their power in order to benefit their political allies.
Here's another one: Did you criticize the Ronald "Sleaze Factor" Reagan for the over-the-top corruption of his administration? Remember, 29 members of his administration were convicted of criminal charges, and that doesn't count the members who were convicted but had their convictions overturned on "technicalities", those who were pardoned after conviction, and those who were pardoned before trial.
It would sure be a lot easier to take you folks seriously if you'd be as hard on proven corruption by Republicans as you are on alleged corruption by Democrats.
Oh, RoadRage, we will never take you seriously because you are a typical Angercrat.
Hahaha.
It's funny. Folks who are incapable of making an argument that isn't dependent on name-calling accusing others of having an anger problem.
Project much?
Oh, and Rob, we're still waiting. Again, please point us to places where you have called for investigations of well-documented Republican corruption.
Roadrunner, it is not that folks are incapable of "making an argument."
It is that you lie and make things up as the conversation goes along.
At some point then folks just give up trying to have a mature conversation with you.
Rob,
Here is yet another smackdown on the hypothesis of politics playing a role in the decisions of which dealerships are to remain open:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/05/on-moon-landings-michelle-malkin-p.html
Furthermore, according to Chrysler, they made the decision of what dealerships to close:
http://blogs.reuters.com/frontrow/2009/05/28/who-decided-which-chrysler-dealers-to-close/
Here's a key paragraph:
Chrysler said in the Reuters article that it made the decisions based on location, customer satisfaction and sales potential. The company also noted that almost half of the targeted dealerships sell other brands of cars and most rely on used vehicle sales for their business.
And, Anon 8:41, what, specifically, have I "lied" about? It's an odd claim, since I tend to back my statements up with citations.
Rob, here is another smackdown of RoadRage's so-called hypothesis that he is hawking to protect Obama from harsh criticism for his Chicago-style thievery in the GovMo - Dealergate scandal.
Even Democrats are growing concerned about probing the naked politics of the Obama-Clinton payback. Go to this item by Josh Painter at redstate.com for more links to sources:
"As we reported yesterday, even some Democrats are beginning to question President Obama and auto his task force. They can’t understand why profitable, top-performing Chrysler dealers are being forced to close their doors. We’ve been asking this and other questions about the Dealergate scandal for weeks, and we’re encouraged to see some House Democrats finally getting curious about how the decisions were made regarding which dealerships would stay and which would go."
As if RoadRage has a sliver of legitimacy here or on the other side. He's a former member of the Oregon Education Association who was kicked out for undisclosed violations of union bylaws -- just trying to get back in 'good graces' with the union thugs by harassing poor Rob. Pathetic.
And still no word from Rob on the K Street Project.
This is truly amazing.
A so-called conservative defending no-bid contracts doled out to a company closely connected to the party in power. You'd think a true conservative, if any such creatures actually exist any more, would say that because there was a close connection between Halliburton and Dick Cheney, that any jobs going to Halliburton must be put out for bid.
And, silence, still, regarding the K Street Project.
Oh RoadRash, so you are shocked, shocked, by the Bush-Cheney Administration. Pathetic redirect.
The topic is Obama and his Chicago-style pay-to-play politics. It is much more relevant and interesting than watching you cling to the failed politics of the past.
If you don't have any comment on topic you are either in the wrong thread or on the wrong blog or both.
Happy birthday, George Sand!
Anon 4:23,
First of all, regarding the supposed scandal with the car dealers, there's no there there. That Rob continues to act like it may be a real scandal shows his lack of character.
Second, it's not a redirect to point out that those on the right, including Rob, were silent in cases where it's clear that political considerations were being taken into account to favor Republicans. It's called "hypocrisy". Get a good dictionary and look it up.
It further shows the lack of character on the right.
Roadrunner, I agree with 4:23 that you should start your own blog. You have some great ideas, and a captivating way of expressing them. You need your own stage. Frankly, this one is beneath you.
I've taken the liberty of checking. Unfortunately, these blogs are not available:
http://roadrunner.blogspot.com/
http://roadkill.blogspot.com/
http://roadrash.blogspot.com/
http://roadtrash.blogspot.com/
http://roadrage.blogspot.com/
http://moonbat.blogspot.com/
However, these are available:
http://roadrunnerbat.blogspot.com/
http://roadbat.blogspot.com/
http://roadbatrash.blogspot.com/
http://roadbatrage.blogspot.com/
http://roadbatroadkill.blogspot.com/
http://roadbattrash.blogspot.com/
http://moonbatrash.blogspot.com/
http://moonbattrash.blogspot.com/
http://moonbatrage.blogspot.com/
http://moonbatroadkill.blogspot.com/
Whatever address you choose, please let us know so those of us who agree with you can join a rational and reasonable conversation for a change.
Haha.
Righties don't seem to like to be held accountable. What's up with that?
And what's up with the constant barrage of juvenile behavior from the right? Didn't any of you people grow up? Did you really have such bad parents that they allowed that behavior?
I remember after the first incident, at one of the grievance arbitration sessions, the mediator observed dryly, "Roadrunner doesn't seem to get along well with others." Of course there was more to come after that. A whole lot more. But many of us thought that was pretty funny at the time.
Rob, you've gone strangely silent.
Can we presume, then, that it's true that you had nothing to say about Tom Delay's K Street Project? Are you just a partisan hypocrite?
If that's the case, why should anyone pay attention to anything you say or write?
An ex-teachers' union hack tries to get back into good graces with the union by launching an anonymous high-tech harassment campaign against a well-known supporter of school choice. How sad. That's the kind of lesson they teach our children today.
RR: maybe someone should explain to you how blogs work. You see, the person who writes the blog gets to write on the topics he chooses.
You seem pretty obsessed with K Street. It is very old news. Don't you have anything better to do?
Rob,
Maybe someone should explain to you how life works. When you spout bogus claims of corruption on one side, while you have ignored substantiated corruption on the other side, it's what most of us call "hypocrisy".
And when you're called on it and try to change the subject, it's what most of us call "cowardice".
It's also hilarious that you call the K Street Project "old news", considering that many on the right are still running against Jimmy Carter.
Rob, we apologize for Roadrash. This is not how we operate. He is an embarrassment to the Left. Sometimes a bad apple goes off like this ... we understand ... we owe you one.
Rob,
You certainly aren't required to respond, but if you want to be taken seriously, which I assume you do (perhaps I'm wrong about this?), then you'll answer serious questions raised about what you post.
And your serious question that I failed to answer was what? About the K street project?
Rob,
You've posted this rumor that appears to be full of holes. I've then asked you about comparable scandals that actually have a basis in reality. So far you've dodged the question.
Yes, what have you written about the K Street Project? What have you written about no-bid contracts for Halliburton (other than the excuse you posted in a previous comment)?
You've also failed to answer the questions I raised about this "scandal", a scandal that appears to exist only in the right-wing blogosphere.
Where is the evidence that political considerations were taken into account in closing dealerships? Chrysler is saying they, not the administration, decided which dealerships to close. That the dealerships were heavily weighted toward G.O.P. contributors is not evidence without a comparison with dealerships that weren't closed, which are also heavily weighted toward G.O.P. contributors.
Rob,
Couldn't one just as easily look at the same data and come to the conclusion that political considerations were used to exclude Democrats from becoming dealers in the first place?
Okay, Rob, I've read several reports on the Congressional hearings on the dealership closings. There seems to be no mention of political considerations in the closings, though there seems to be some political considerations in protesting the closings (from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/12/AR2009061204063.html?hpid=sec-business):
Like most Republicans, Rep. Vern Buchanan (Fla.) has strongly criticized the Obama administration's moves to rescue GM and Chrysler as an improper interference in free markets. But Buchanan, who holds an ownership stake in more than a dozen Florida car dealerships, has not hesitated to speak out for another beleaguered industry: the thousands of car dealers that GM and Chrysler have slated for closure.
Ah, yes, Rep. Buchanan is taking a highly principled stand that just so happens to coincide with his own economic interest.
A federal bankruptcy judge approved Chrysler's plans to close nearly 800 of its 3,200 dealers
Oh, so the bankruptcy judge is in on the scam to punish Republican dealerships?
Domestic-auto dealers and their employees contributed more than $9 million to federal candidates in 2007 and 2008, while foreign-car dealerships and their workers gave more than $17 million, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. About three-quarters of the donations in both categories went to Republicans, with defeated presidential candidate Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) leading the pack.
As I've posted here numerous times, of course the majority of closed dealerships are going to be Republican contributors--the majority of dealers are G.O.P. contributors. Nothing seems out of balance.
Again, Rob, there's no there there. And yet, no apology from you to your readers, who you continue to flip the bird to by failing to retract this bogus story.
Funny how some folks come to conservative blogs citing the NYT and WaPo, for examples, as if that will make some kind of impression. Here's a clue for the clueless. Conservatives realize, eyes wide open, that the WaPo will not criticize the D.C. Democrat ruling class. Period.
It's shocking to see a naive rank-and-file Dem so unaware of how the Dem power-politics game is played, especially now that the Chicago rules govern.
Anon 4:12,
Okay, if you don't like my source, show a source that answers the questions I've raised. Nobody on here has done it. Not a one.
How sad. There's a YouTube video: here that's been on NWR all weekend laying out some of the questions. The truth is finding its way out as the Obama defenders fold one by one. Even Steny Hoyer is pushing for a probe. But the rank-and-file Dem fawn Obamunist Angercrat still can't see it and can't stop denying out loud.
There's not a single thing in the video about political considerations being used in deciding which dealerships to close.
And, still no word from Rob. What a coward.
Rob, why should anyone take anything you post seriously? You post a bunch of gossip, then don't have the guts to own up to it.
Roadbat,
I notice that you do not provide an apology to Rob or myself for your false accusation about us posting bogus information?
Is that what constitutes courage in moonbatland?
yip yip
But, Ted, you did post bogus information. My accusation was not false.
Again, there has not been any information posted that shows even a hint that dealerships were closed because of their political contributions. Where were some meaningless statistics and examples posted.
Ted and Rob, are you such partisans that it doesn't bother you in the slightest to lie in order to try to further your partisan agenda? If so, you are very sad men.
Oh, and speaking of Rob, what kind of a weasel makes a false accusation, then denies that it was an accusation in the first place?
That really has to take the cake.
You people are absolutely shameless.
Fortunately, the electorate has mostly caught on, which is why your party of choice is going down the toilet.
Anyway, it would be great to have an honest opposition party. Perhaps someday you folks will wake up and provide that, but I'm not holding my breath.
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